Curse

Deleet · Aug 06, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Posted here, because it contains more than simply suggestions.

An alternative Guild Wars design

Foreword and definition
I intend to lay forward a different design for Guild Wars than the one there currently is. I choose the vague word design, because I want to change a lot of things and I could not find a word that would cover all the changes besides such a vague word as 'design'.
I'm a PvP'er and a firm opposer of grinding. I also play PvE sometimes, so I know of both worlds. I have a large interest in philosophy, so this might contain some philosophical elements. This essay was written while I was making it up, so sometimes I will write about something that I have not explained yet, just read on.

I want to eliminate grinding totally. Grinding is defined as repeated non-stimulating actions. This IS a subjective definition. It is that because of the subjective nature of 'stimulation'. Stimulation is whatever the player enjoys doing, thus non-stimulating is that which the player does not enjoy doing.

The player is the average player. The player might grind in order to get something else, for instance, money. But it is not the grinding per se that makes him happy, it is the reward received. In this way, farming quickly becomes grinding, because it is monotone and boring to do.

PvE and PvP character distinction removed
One thing I would change, is the way PvE works. I want to add an optional possibility for creating max level PvE characters, complete with non-visual stimulating items, but nonetheless max items. This is to enable greater variety in PvE play and eliminate some problems. This change opens for highly customized PvE without the grinding needed. Do you want to try beating a mission with 8 monks? No problem. With all rangers? Fine. Note the optional, you can still create level 1 characters if you wish. Add a restriction that you cannot create a max level character of that profession before you have leveled it up once. This fits the lore, as the spirit has to learn to use the profession. More information about the spirit later on.

This effectively removes the difference between PvP and PvE characters, so we can just scrap the distinction all together. This might offend the lore-interested player, but that I have a solution for. Let's say that the player is a spirit that can enter different bodies. So, when I enter a warrior, my spirit just combines with the warrior for the time being. Account based titles are thus spirit titles, they function over all characters. There are no longer any character specific titles, but there are profession based titles. One example could be beat the game in monk parties only. This title would stick to the account, so even if you delete your monk character, then you can just create it later and the title will be there.

This fixes problems like:
I am unhappy with the character name
I am unhappy with how the character looks

The next thing to change is unlocks. Everything is unlocked per default. There is no longer any grinding for unlocking.

But what are players supposed to do, when they don't grind?

Players don't spend time gathering max level items. But they still gather prestige items, like the current design. To add more stuff to do, I want to focus a lot more on challenges and fun.

The game ought to contain a lot of challenges in form of achievements. I mentioned one before, but they come in the form “accomplish x without y”, like healing. There is still hard mode.

Running mode
I wish to reintroduce running as an actual gameplay element. Then I want to add spirit-based map travel--once the spirit has been there once it can go there with any character. This eliminates the current reason for running--laziness. However, I want to add quests for running and even missions. Running quests come of the form “get to x in y time, the faster you get there, the more money you make” and more advanced ones like “Get to x, in y time, with item z., earn more money per less time used.” This way, running remains a way to make money, but in a hopefully more fun way than grinding.

Combating boredom
After a while, running the same routes become boring too, this is why I want to increase the dynamics of quests. The harder and more profitable running quests will receive random elements, like different creatures on the map and different maps all randomly generated. Running is to become a team effort, but there ought to be some solo-runs that are also profitable for players who wish to play solo.

Escape mode
Another gameplay that ought to be added is escape-mode. You might know this from Warcraft 3 custom maps. It seems good suited for Guild Wars. Basically, it's like running although only an x amount of players need to make it--the more the more money. It will feature highly interactive areas with traps and what not. Dynamic elements is also added to this gamemode. The main difference between running and escape mode is that in escape mode fighting is a more viable tactic.

These two gamemodes are not exhaustive for achievements, there are many possible ways to create interesting achievements:
Can you beat the game on hard mode with only four skills?
Can you beat the game on hard time in five hours? Effectively introducing speedrun as a gamemode.

Continuous content
Instead of a monthly fee that most or perhaps just many players prefer not to have. I want to lay an extra focus on small content update sale. There needs to be a better in-game store, this is absolutely necessary. Then, I propose that they make small areas with new quests etc. and sell them. The good thing about this model versus monthly fee model is that if you don't like the content, if you don't have to buy it. The new areas could introduce new skills, so that PvP'ers could not play a lot cheaper than PvE'ers, because they had to buy some new content to get new skills.

Global PvE skills removed
They remove creativity. By global I mean Ursan-ish skills, Sunspear and other grind-title associated skills.

Titles - back to skill>time
Titles are appearance only.

In-game voice support
Yes and remember to add a feature to mute players, to prevent lamers from destroying the game for others.
NPCs in PvP
Is a contradiction in terms. PvP ought to be less focused on NPCs, Abs and GvGs are too much focused on NPCs. And the game needs better party support. Did you ever try to heal NPCs and non-party friendly targets? It's hard, because they don't show up. Simply add an “allies within radar range”.

More PvP features
Add organized versions of ABs and the A-missions. Imagine playing Fort Aspenwood with all guildies? Also add random version of HA. Make it so, that it groups people in somewhat usable party configurations (1-3 melee, 2-3 healers...). With improved voice support, this ought to be fun.

Comments please.

(I will not respond to all posts, it might be because they are stupid, boring, repeated points or I might be lazy)

zwei2stein · Aug 06, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Sounds interesting, but prepare to be flamed by people who think that rpg-mmo is about watching numbers go +1 that that THAT is fun.

Quaker · Aug 06, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

I'm a PvP'er .... I also play PvE sometimes, so I know of both worlds.

In Guild Wars, considering that PvP and PvE are essentially two separate games, I can see no point to even involving PvPers in PvE. It would seem that ANet has come to that conclusion too, since they have made skill packs available.
Other than the possibility of obtaining some different armor and weapons skins, or, perhaps reducing costs by not buying skill packs, what benefit is there for a PvPer to even play PvE?

For a PvEer like myself, my main interest is in exploring the 'world', doing quests, getting fancy skins, etc. - basic RPG stuff. There is basically very little grind necessary in GW - that is, some people (PvE) may want to grind out their titles if they like/want, but maxed out titles are not necessary to play the game and the extra grind is seldom worth the extra ability. Some would complain that that is a problem, while others would be glad that the game does not, therefore, really depend upon grinding. (I am basing this somewhat upon my own personal experience in which I found level 8 in Norn/Asura/Vanguard/Dwarven titles to be obtainable through normal play - only lvl 9 & 10 required any 'grinding'.)

Of course, GW(1) is really a dead issue now anyway, and what GW2 will be like is still open to speculation. Personally, I'd like to see more emphasis on PvE/RPG play in GW2, but there will apparently be some WoW-like PvP aspects as well. For PvP, it would be better if they simply came out with a PvP only game called something like Guild Wars: Arenas and left GW2 to be more of an RPG.

Alexandra-Sweet · Aug 06, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

You're a PvPer (with some PvE experience) and you wish to completely change PvE?

PvE titles require less grind then PvP titles so I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish, maybe you should try changing PvP into something more like PvE (more rewards, progression)

And the basic formula of an MMO = GRIND.

Zinger314 · Aug 06, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

I want to eliminate grinding totally. Grinding is defined as repeated non-stimulating actions. This IS a subjective definition. It is that because of the subjective nature of 'stimulation'. Stimulation is whatever the player enjoys doing, thus non-stimulating is that which the player does not enjoy doing.

The player is the average player. The player might grind in order to get something else, for instance, money. But it is not the grinding per se that makes him happy, it is the reward received. In this way, farming quickly becomes grinding, because it is monotone and boring to do.

Impossible. Purely impossible. A lack of grind would imply that there would be a constant stream of new content, which, of course, cannot be done by ANY MMO, free or pay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

One thing I would change, is the way PvE works. I want to add an optional possibility for creating max level PvE characters, complete with non-visual stimulating items, but nonetheless max items. This is to enable greater variety in PvE play and eliminate some problems. This change opens for highly customized PvE without the grinding needed. Do you want to try beating a mission with 8 monks? No problem. With all rangers? Fine. Note the optional, you can still create level 1 characters if you wish. Add a restriction that you cannot create a max level character of that profession before you have leveled it up once. This fits the lore, as the spirit has to learn to use the profession. More information about the spirit later on.

This effectively removes the difference between PvP and PvE characters, so we can just scrap the distinction all together. This might offend the lore-interested player, but that I have a solution for. Let's say that the player is a spirit that can enter different bodies. So, when I enter a warrior, my spirit just combines with the warrior for the time being. Account based titles are thus spirit titles, they function over all characters. There are no longer any character specific titles, but there are profession based titles. One example could be beat the game in monk parties only. This title would stick to the account, so even if you delete your monk character, then you can just create it later and the title will be there.

It takes what, 3-4 hours to hit lv. 20 in Factions and purchase max weapons? The speed of leveling does not cause a distinction between PvE and PvP...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Players don't spend time gathering max level items. But they still gather prestige items, like the current design. To add more stuff to do, I want to focus a lot more on challenges and fun.

The game ought to contain a lot of challenges in form of achievements. I mentioned one before, but they come in the form “accomplish x without y”, like healing. There is still hard mode.

Again, that would have to be supplemented by constantly added content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

I wish to reintroduce running as an actual gameplay element. Then I want to add spirit-based map travel--once the spirit has been there once it can go there with any character. This eliminates the current reason for running--laziness. However, I want to add quests for running and even missions. Running quests come of the form “get to x in y time, the faster you get there, the more money you make” and more advanced ones like “Get to x, in y time, with item z., earn more money per less time used.” This way, running remains a way to make money, but in a hopefully more fun way than grinding.

Then what's the point of starting a new character/profession in PvE if you can, literally, do anything? I'm not sure if you want Easy Mode or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

After a while, running the same routes become boring too, this is why I want to increase the dynamics of quests. The harder and more profitable running quests will receive random elements, like different creatures on the map and different maps all randomly generated. Running is to become a team effort, but there ought to be some solo-runs that are also profitable for players who wish to play solo.

A RNG does not combat boredom. It just makes people (i.e. customers) angry when it screws them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Another gameplay that ought to be added is escape-mode. You might know this from Warcraft 3 custom maps. It seems good suited for Guild Wars. Basically, it's like running although only an x amount of players need to make it--the more the more money. It will feature highly interactive areas with traps and what not. Dynamic elements is also added to this gamemode. The main difference between running and escape mode is that in escape mode fighting is a more viable tactic.

Actual team-based gameplay wouldn't work in an MMO, where the average person has the IQ of a watermelon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

These two gamemodes are not exhaustive for achievements, there are many possible ways to create interesting achievements:
Can you beat the game on hard mode with only four skills?
Can you beat the game on hard time in five hours? Effectively introducing speedrun as a gamemode.

Those actually work in GW's game design, but I don't like them. (Then again, I don't understand people who consider going AFK on Nine Rings as an achievement...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Instead of a monthly fee that most or perhaps just many players prefer not to have. I want to lay an extra focus on small content update sale. There needs to be a better in-game store, this is absolutely necessary. Then, I propose that they make small areas with new quests etc. and sell them. The good thing about this model versus monthly fee model is that if you don't like the content, if you don't have to buy it. The new areas could introduce new skills, so that PvP'ers could not play a lot cheaper than PvE'ers, because they had to buy some new content to get new skills.

That's bad business for a company. If a company invests in something (i.e. development of content), they NEED to force it onto players (as was the case with the BMP)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

They remove creativity. By global I mean Ursan-ish skills, Sunspear and other grind-title associated skills.

The skils just suffered from bad design, otherwise the idea is good. (if the Sunspear max points needed was lowered a bit, it would help)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Titles are appearance only.

True idea, but remember, titles were a marketing gimmick, intended to provide progression for players at 20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Yes and remember to add a feature to mute players, to prevent lamers from destroying the game for others.
NPCs in PvP
Is a contradiction in terms. PvP ought to be less focused on NPCs, Abs and GvGs are too much focused on NPCs. And the game needs better party support. Did you ever try to heal NPCs and non-party friendly targets? It's hard, because they don't show up. Simply add an “allies within radar range”.

Again, costs money. Lots of money, in fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Add organized versions of ABs and the A-missions. Imagine playing Fort Aspenwood with all guildies? Also add random version of HA. Make it so, that it groups people in somewhat usable party configurations (1-3 melee, 2-3 healers...). With improved voice support, this ought to be fun.

Good idea. I was surprised ArenaNet forced FA/AB to be all random.

In short, the game is easy enough; no point in making it easier.

Grunntar · Aug 06, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Interesting... Obviously not something they could (or would) ever implement, but interesting...!

I think that your ideas are in conflict with the original vision of the game. The designers had it in mind to create a PvP game where everyone would compete. But to get them competent at playing, they threw in a PvE mode to give them lots of time and material to practice with. In fact, to get the skills needed to compete on a high level, you needed to finish the game, giving access to all elite skills and skill trainers. These players would then get to the end of the storyline, and then devote most of their effort toward PvP.

Unfortunately (for that vision), many chose to ignore PvP, and stuck with PvE. The content provided them with hundreds of hours of play time for a single character. And you could have up to four! So there was plenty to do without having to "move on" to PvP. And some decided they wanted the "shiny objects" that required large sums of money, so they started to farm.

So where's the grind? Some people chose to farm, so that's their own making. No sympathy there! That leaves PvP as the only grind. Fighting the same battles over and over... But that's the game, by design! So it's not considered grind.

Then they introduced Factions. With more character slots. Some people felt the need to finish everything, with all of their characters. This introduced some element of grind, since they were doing the same things all over again. Shortcuts, like running, were removed. But for many, Factions did not seem as long, leaving them with a hunger for more to do. (Especially people with only one main character!)

Since they couldn't invent more content within the framework of Prophecies or Factions, (with Nightfall as the primary development focus), they introduced titles. Hey, it gives people something to do, so why not!

But here is the crux of the problem!

If you make the final goal too easy to attain, it doesn't give players enough to do, leaving them wanting more. (Still!) If you make the goal too distant, everyone thinks that it's grind!

To be honest, I think that everyone has a different threshold for what is acceptable, so there is no way to win! You have to make it enough for the player that only plays one character. But you also have to make it reasonable enough for the character that does it multiple times. Seems like a "no win" situation to me...

So what's my solution? The game is what it is, so just deal with it!!

You want to get titles, go for it. You think it's a grind, then do something else. Simple, really...

Deleet · Aug 06, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunntar

Interesting... Obviously not something they could (or would) ever implement, but interesting...!

I think that your ideas are in conflict with the original vision of the game. The designers had it in mind to create a PvP game where everyone would compete. But to get them competent at playing, they threw in a PvE mode to give them lots of time and material to practice with. In fact, to get the skills needed to compete on a high level, you needed to finish the game, giving access to all elite skills and skill trainers. These players would then get to the end of the storyline, and then devote most of their effort toward PvP.
Unfortunately (for that vision), many chose to ignore PvP, and stuck with PvE. The content provided them with hundreds of hours of play time for a single character. And you could have up to four! So there was plenty to do without having to "move on" to PvP. And some decided they wanted the "shiny objects" that required large sums of money, so they started to farm.

Agree.

Quote:

So where's the grind? Some people chose to farm, so that's their own making. No sympathy there! That leaves PvP as the only grind. Fighting the same battles over and over... But that's the game, by design! So it's not considered grind.

Per the definition of grind above, that is not grind. It's not the same battles, because they teams you're against adapt.

Quote:

Since they couldn't invent more content within the framework of Prophecies or Factions, (with Nightfall as the primary development focus), they introduced titles. Hey, it gives people something to do, so why not!

But mostly not FUN to do, i.e. just grinding. It's like giving people a work.

Quote:

To be honest, I think that everyone has a different threshold for what is acceptable, so there is no way to win! You have to make it enough for the player that only plays one character. But you also have to make it reasonable enough for the character that does it multiple times. Seems like a "no win" situation to me...

"Average player"

pumpkin pie · Aug 06, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

This isn't all that bad, but Its like its another game all together.

P A L P H R A M O N D · Aug 06, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I think you have alot of good ideas.

I would personally love more inventive challenge missions, I think the running ones with traps, better rewards if you do it quicker / with more people alive would be a great addition.

I also like the idea of a random version of HA and a non-random version of AB. It would absolutely get more people into those, and hopefully increase the level of competition. AB as it stands is an awful (albeit madly fun) hack-away part of the game.

I don't think it is a good idea to mess with levelling or to have PvE characters rollable. Part of the fun is making a character, sticking with it, learning to play the class as you level up, collecting weapons / elite skills, etc. There is no need to make that process any more simple, it is fine the way it is.

Also, I don't mind the grind aspect so much. It is there in every fantasy / MMO game ever, and frankly, if I want to be a "Legendary Vanquisher" or somesuch cool title, than I sure has heck better take the hard road and battle my way to it! Making EVERYTHING easier and more accessible would take alot of fun out of the game . . . knowing that there are a ton of things that I will probably never attain is a challenge more than anything else. For me anyways.

Overall though, some great ideas I would love to see implemented in GW.

Thizzle · Aug 06, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I like these ideas. Running mode is a great idea and if it was ever implemented I think making the traps that activate on a route should be dynamic to add more creativity.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 06, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

These are great ideas, and a lot less outlandish than you might think. Hell, almost all of them have been done before in some way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

PvE and PvP character distinction removed
One thing I would change, is the way PvE works. I want to add an optional possibility for creating max level PvE characters, complete with non-visual stimulating items, but nonetheless max items.

Tabula Rasa did this with a "cloning" system. As your character developed, you accumulated clone points. At any time, you could use a clone point to create an alt the same level as you, but with no classes/skills chosen. Thus, you only had to go through the early game once, and could try out anything you wanted. While TR didn't do that well, this was one of its most lauded features, by players and critics both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Players don't spend time gathering max level items. But they still gather prestige items, like the current design. To add more stuff to do, I want to focus a lot more on challenges and fun.

Again, we already have challenge missions. They're not very popular because sadly, they suck. The rewards are crap, the quests are boring, and nobody cares about the top scores. Fix those, and people will play them. Hell, look at glint's challenge. It's only marginally better than the other challenge missions, but it's reasonably popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Continuous content

And here's where stuff falls apart. Additional content is expensive and time-consuming to produce. It's far less expensive to throw out a few grinding loops. For example, take GW:EN. The content itself can be completed in a few days. However, grinding out all the titles takes months. What's more, those titles represent about 15 minutes of coding vs. a year or more for the main content.

The trick here is to create challenges and tasks which can be done over and over, yet don't feel like grind. Very well designed challenge missions would fit this well, but clearly Anet isn't the best in the world at that.

You're correct that nobody likes monthly fees, that's the single biggest why Guild Wars has done as well as it has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Global PvE skills removed

Titles - back to skill>time
Titles are appearance only.

Should be obvious. The game is balanced around PvP, adding more powerful stuff to PvE becomes imbalanced and stupid pretty quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

In-game voice support

I'm sort of amazed this isn't a standard feature in MMOs by now. Every online first person shooter made has this, it's mandatory for competitive teamplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

More PvP features
Add organized versions of ABs and the A-missions. Imagine playing Fort Aspenwood with all guildies? Also add random version of HA. Make it so, that it groups people in somewhat usable party configurations (1-3 melee, 2-3 healers...). With improved voice support, this ought to be fun.

Agreed again. From the flip side, they should add pick-up play to more complex game modes, like GvG and HA. Newer players don't even have a chance to look at the maps and figure out how to play in higher areas. This is why people complain about rank discrimination - they don't want to instantly join the top groups, they just want to screw around. Obviously organized play should garner more rewards and prestige, but RA is the most popular PvP gametype for a reason.

Also, Aspenwood is by far the most creative PvP gametype. Yes, it's buggy and not as competitive, but it remains fun as hell. I was mad when they scrapped competitive missions in Nightfall

.

GoodApollo1234 · Aug 06, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Shouldn't this go in the GW2 suggestions thread?

Edit: Sorry, I'm an idiot. I didn't notice the top line of your post. My mistake.

But still, this sounds like a completely different game.

Deleet · Aug 06, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Tabula Rasa did this with a "cloning" system. As your character developed, you accumulated clone points. At any time, you could use a clone point to create an alt the same level as you, but with no classes/skills chosen. Thus, you only had to go through the early game once, and could try out anything you wanted. While TR didn't do that well, this was one of its most lauded features, by players and critics both.

Interesting.

Quote:

Again, we already have challenge missions. They're not very popular because sadly, they suck. The rewards are crap, the quests are boring, and nobody cares about the top scores. Fix those, and people will play them. Hell, look at glint's challenge. It's only marginally better than the other challenge missions, but it's reasonably popular.
(snip)
The trick here is to create challenges and tasks which can be done over and over, yet don't feel like grind. Very well designed challenge missions would fit this well, but clearly Anet isn't the best in the world at that.

I would plan on doing that and creating a lot more gamemodes of this style.

Quote:

And here's where stuff falls apart. Additional content is expensive and time-consuming to produce. It's far less expensive to throw out a few grinding loops. For example, take GW:EN. The content itself can be completed in a few days. However, grinding out all the titles takes months. What's more, those titles represent about 15 minutes of coding vs. a year or more for the main content.

I didn't say it was the best route economically. I said it would be better than the current one large update sale. Because I don't want half the game, just the skills and the end areas. And so on. If ANet could find some way that works for them economically, it would be great.

I suggested small cheap updates. Like a new area with one-three repeatable quest(s) with. That would not take to much time.

Quote:

You're correct that nobody likes monthly fees, that's the single biggest why Guild Wars has done as well as it has.

I agree.

Quote:

Should be obvious. The game is balanced around PvP, adding more powerful stuff to PvE becomes imbalanced and stupid pretty quickly.

But obviously, it isn't to the developers.

Quote:

Agreed again. From the flip side, they should add pick-up play to more complex game modes, like GvG and HA. Newer players don't even have a chance to look at the maps and figure out how to play in higher areas. This is why people complain about rank discrimination - they don't want to instantly join the top groups, they just want to screw around. Obviously organized play should garner more rewards and prestige, but RA is the most popular PvP gametype for a reason.

Because it's easy to get into. Improving such a feature is a good idea.

Quote:

Also, Aspenwood is by far the most creative PvP gametype. Yes, it's buggy and not as competitive, but it remains fun as hell. I was mad when they scrapped competitive missions in Nightfall

.

It should have been competitive and, of course, non-buggy.

-----

On a more general note, thanks for the useful replies.
I see there are already stupid posts in the thread--no surprise there.

Deleet · Aug 06, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodApollo1234

Shouldn't this go in the GW2 suggestions thread?

Edit: Sorry, I'm an idiot. I didn't notice the top line of your post. My mistake.

But still, this sounds like a completely different game.

It's not really a suggestion for GW1 or 2. Just speculation of what cool things could have been done. I've been annoyed with ANet for some time. They created such a genius skill system etc., I don't want them to throw it all away with retarded grind.

What makes it a different game? It's the same graphics, skills, interface and gameplay (mostly).

Antheus · Aug 06, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Impossible. Purely impossible. A lack of grind would imply that there would be a constant stream of new content, which, of course, cannot be done by ANY MMO, free or pay.

Quick, someone tell the virtual world makers that their games don't work. After all, some of them have only been around for 10+ years, so they don't have much to lose.

BTW: MySpace and Facebook are some of the largest MMOs. Unfortunately, they aren't WoW clones, so people don't want to hear that they have anything in common.

But no, achievements are just a sub-genre when it comes to MMOs. The non-grind games value expression, not numbers, and just like the pvp vs. pve division, the number of those preferring light or no competitive aspects in favor of unconstrained expression is heavily on the favor of the later.

JupiterStarWarrior · Aug 06, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I'm going to reply to the original post before reading what others say, then I'll reply to other things (I'm replying as I'm reading" (The following quotes originated from Deleet, unless otherwise stated, and not in its entirety (for example, the first few lines and the Foreword and definition)).

Quote:

PvE and PvP character distinction removed
One thing I would change, is the way PvE works. I want to add an optional possibility for creating max level PvE characters, complete with non-visual stimulating items, but nonetheless max items. This is to enable greater variety in PvE play and eliminate some problems. This change opens for highly customized PvE without the grinding needed. Do you want to try beating a mission with 8 monks? No problem. With all rangers? Fine. Note the optional, you can still create level 1 characters if you wish. Add a restriction that you cannot create a max level character of that profession before you have leveled it up once. This fits the lore, as the spirit has to learn to use the profession. More information about the spirit later on.

I disagree on this, simply because the act of leveling up a character in the Environment (PvE play) is what an RPG is about (although some may argue it's the PvP-part or the PvPvE part). What makes Guild Wars unique is that when you complete quests, you gain experience, which makes leveling up to Level 20 much easier to accomplish. Once Level 20 has been done, you got to complete two additional quests in order to gain max Attributes, and that's it. No more grinding is necessary in order to actually complete the game (with the exception of certain Nightfall quests, which, again, is easy to obtain). You don't NEED to get max rank on Lightbringer or Sunspear to complete the game (just makes it easier). You don't need max Norn reputation to complete the quests (you don't even need to use the Blessing skills that Eye of the North has to offer). Will it make it easier? Probably.

But, to start off an RPG character at Level 20 is not such a good idea (which is what I'm reading here at the present). It sucks the fun out of actually completing the quests and missions, and the enemies (if they stay where they are at in Normal Mode) are much easier. What if I complete the campaign and want to start a new character? What then? Do I want it to be at level 20 at the start? No, not really. Part of the fun of the game is the development of my character. Each one that I make in PvE I put a lot of time into it, and as such, quite a good history built up as well.

Another thing I like about PvE is the drops that occur. I don't know what I'm going to get when that Req 9 Max damage sword drops. That's a lot of fun for me. To start getting max damage req 9 items that's fully customizable in PvE (as one would do in PvP) is not a heck of a lot of fun for me, so I say no to this as well.

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This effectively removes the difference between PvP and PvE characters, so we can just scrap the distinction all together. This might offend the lore-interested player, but that I have a solution for. Let's say that the player is a spirit that can enter different bodies. So, when I enter a warrior, my spirit just combines with the warrior for the time being. Account based titles are thus spirit titles, they function over all characters. There are no longer any character specific titles, but there are profession based titles. One example could be beat the game in monk parties only. This title would stick to the account, so even if you delete your monk character, then you can just create it later and the title will be there.

This fixes problems like:
I am unhappy with the character name
I am unhappy with how the character looks

The next thing to change is unlocks. Everything is unlocked per default. There is no longer any grinding for unlocking.

I kind of agree that a player could be considered as spirits, but we are only talking about one player (you). One thing about Guild Wars is that, like any other game, the story is linear (but you can go back and do missions and stuff). Things happen in a certain, logical order (even if the player can't see it). So, what you're saying, then, is that the spirit can go back in time to pocess a different body and do things over? Know what that is? Character-creation. I already do that, so I don't think it's a good idea. So, speaking of timeline...

It doesn't make sense that when you are a Sunspear trainee (like when you start Nightfall) that you're already "out-ranking" Spearmarshal Kormir (by being a Legendary Spearmarshal). You're a trainee, for crying out loud! How did you start of by out-ranking your trainer?! But, when you get to Elona (from, let's say, Tyria), this is probably your first time to help the Sunspears. You don't automatically out-rank everyone; you start out at MAYBE a commander (but, then, you start gaining rank). I may not make sense, but it is kind of difficult to explain.

As for "unlocking" items, I've bought the unlock packs for my account. It's a money maker for ArenaNet/NCSoft. They're not taking that away. Besides, you can unlock items by getting them for Balthazar Faction (which, yeah, could seem like "grinding", but if you're continually PvP'ing, then that shouldn't be much of an issue; at least you can gain more Balthazar by spending Balthazar).

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But what are players supposed to do, when they don't grind?

Players don't spend time gathering max level items. But they still gather prestige items, like the current design. To add more stuff to do, I want to focus a lot more on challenges and fun.

The game ought to contain a lot of challenges in form of achievements. I mentioned one before, but they come in the form “accomplish x without y”, like healing. There is still hard mode.

Which sounds awfully familiar... Oh, wait! XBox 360 games have that thing implemented already. I don't know about that; I didn't like it when I first saw it, and I don't like it now.

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Running mode
I wish to reintroduce running as an actual gameplay element. Then I want to add spirit-based map travel--once the spirit has been there once it can go there with any character. This eliminates the current reason for running--laziness. However, I want to add quests for running and even missions. Running quests come of the form “get to x in y time, the faster you get there, the more money you make” and more advanced ones like “Get to x, in y time, with item z., earn more money per less time used.” This way, running remains a way to make money, but in a hopefully more fun way than grinding.

-_-; No. Simply, no. A SPIRIT may have traveld to an area, but a certain character has not.

CHARACTER A: When I was at Droknar's Forge...
CHARACTER B: No. You were never at Droknar's Forge; you've been here the entire time.
CHARACTER A: Crap! Wrong body!
CHARACTER B: Huh?!

Running in a quest? HELL NO! That quest is not worth the money, time, or energy spent on trying to go through the hordes of snares that can result from this idea. Simply, no. Besides, you're still going to have "runners" in the line because people will want the quest reward without much work.

QUOTE]Combating boredom
After a while, running the same routes become boring too, this is why I want to increase the dynamics of quests. The harder and more profitable running quests will receive random elements, like different creatures on the map and different maps all randomly generated. Running is to become a team effort, but there ought to be some solo-runs that are also profitable for players who wish to play solo.[/quote]

The dynamic system is already done, I believe. As far as I know, each time you enter an area, the spawns differ slightly.

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Escape mode
Another gameplay that ought to be added is escape-mode. You might know this from Warcraft 3 custom maps. It seems good suited for Guild Wars. Basically, it's like running although only an x amount of players need to make it--the more the more money. It will feature highly interactive areas with traps and what not. Dynamic elements is also added to this gamemode. The main difference between running and escape mode is that in escape mode fighting is a more viable tactic.

These two gamemodes are not exhaustive for achievements, there are many possible ways to create interesting achievements:
Can you beat the game on hard mode with only four skills?
Can you beat the game on hard time in five hours? Effectively introducing speedrun as a gamemode.

I have to say this right now: You're proposing a totally different game already; "Can one beat the game in hard mode in five hours?"?! That's impossible (unless you have somone take your level 6 or 7 character from Ascalon City to Sanctum Cay, then do the different desert missions). Let's not forget the accension mission (Augury Rock). That alone is not feasible with a level 10-13 character, even in Hard Mode.

Besides, read my "Accomplishments" argument above.

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Continuous content
Instead of a monthly fee that most or perhaps just many players prefer not to have. I want to lay an extra focus on small content update sale. There needs to be a better in-game store, this is absolutely necessary. Then, I propose that they make small areas with new quests etc. and sell them. The good thing about this model versus monthly fee model is that if you don't like the content, if you don't have to buy it. The new areas could introduce new skills, so that PvP'ers could not play a lot cheaper than PvE'ers, because they had to buy some new content to get new skills.

So, I have to pay some money to get a skill? No. I already do that in game (if I want a skill that I don't want to wait as a Quest Reward to receive, I must pay gold for it). However, certain content (like weapons, for example) could be purchased from that store. That would be ideal; it gives ArenaNet/NCSoft some more money in their pockets, as long as it went toward providing extra quests and whatnot to the game. I'd be up for it (except it'd be something like most of the free-to-get/free-to-play have already implemented).

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Global PvE skills removed
They remove creativity. By global I mean Ursan-ish skills, Sunspear and other grind-title associated skills.

Read my "don't have to grind" argument above; you don't necessarily have to have those skills (the only exception could possibly be Lightbringer's Gaze, which makes life so much easier when fighting Margonites, but, once again, you DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THEM TO COMPLETE THE NIGHTFALL CAMPAIGN)

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Titles - back to skill>time
Titles are appearance only.

I actually agree with this, but it's still fun to get.

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In-game voice support
Yes and remember to add a feature to mute players, to prevent lamers from destroying the game for others.

This I kind of agree to. Though, Guild Wars would need to implement a VOIP program (which could be difficult). Perhaps Guild Wars 2? Just as long as it doesn't hinder players' game play.

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NPCs in PvP
Is a contradiction in terms. PvP ought to be less focused on NPCs, Abs and GvGs are too much focused on NPCs. And the game needs better party support. Did you ever try to heal NPCs and non-party friendly targets? It's hard, because they don't show up. Simply add an “allies within radar range”.

All-in-all, it's a very well written article, despite that I disagreed with most of what was written. I commend you for taking the time to write this. Good day to you.

EDIT: By the way, I have read the responses; I just choose not to reply to them. >_>

Grunntar · Aug 06, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

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Originally Posted by Deleet

"Average player"

Yes, that would seem to be a good goal. Make the grind acceptable for the average player... But which "average" do you refer to? Certainly not the "mediocre" definition of average. Perhaps you mean to use the "statistical" definition...

Well, there's the average of *all* players, past and present. Many of them left the game two to three years ago. Should they tailor a game to people that don't play any more...? Probably not.

And then there's the "average" of all people playing the game right now. This includes those few who are new to the game, and only started playing last month. I don't think it makes sense to tailor a game to new players either. And this "average" also includes the die-hards, that have played since beta, and have more than ten thousand hours of actual playtime, and "have done it all..." Many times over! These guys are hardly average!

So we've thrown out the players that don't play any more, the newbie players, and the veteran players... Who's left?

The player that puts in 2-4 hours per week...? Do you think this guy is the one moaning about the grind? He barely pays attention to the game. Seems to me that he's not the one going into forums and crying about how much time it takes to max a title? (And no, that's not meant as a personal attack on anyone. It's just an observation about many of the vocal, "anti-grind" Guru readers.)

But perhaps this question isn't even meaningful to answer. What do you think opinions would be if titles were there from Day One? People would just accept that that's the game, like it or leave it. It's only because titles were introduced after people got to know every aspect of the game, and this was a change. (And they liked the game so much, they felt compelled to get the titles!) So what have we learned?

Change is BAD!! Bad, BAD change...

Yawgmoth · Aug 06, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

An alternative Guild Wars design, but much better... it's called GW2. And OP went wrong way, it's more like GW0, a step back.

Some small specific changes suggested are either good and obvious (more pvp modes) or just terribly bad (business model, killing the character development part of an RPG game)

Deleet · Aug 06, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

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Originally Posted by Grunntar

Yes, that would seem to be a good goal. Make the grind acceptable for the average player... But which "average" do you refer to? Certainly not the "mediocre" definition of average. Perhaps you mean to use the "statistical" definition...

Yes.

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Well, there's the average of *all* players, past and present. Many of them left the game two to three years ago. Should they tailor a game to people that don't play any more...? Probably not.

Depends. They might come back after some of the problems have been fixed, new content and what not.

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And then there's the "average" of all people playing the game right now. This includes those few who are new to the game, and only started playing last month. I don't think it makes sense to tailor a game to new players either. And this "average" also includes the die-hards, that have played since beta, and have more than ten thousand hours of actual playtime, and "have done it all..." Many times over! These guys are hardly average!

I didn't mean the average player playing the game as it is now, but the likely buyers of the new game. I realize there are too many changes to actually be made into GW1.

Yichi · Aug 06, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

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Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

...maybe you should try changing PvP into something more like PvE...

and you should be shot for suggesting this....